Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/03/1997 08:06 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
April 3, 1997
8:06 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jeannette James, Chair
Representative Ethan Berkowitz
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Mark Hodgins
Representative Ivan Ivan
Representative Al Vezey
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Kim Elton
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 181
"An Act relating to separate segregated funds for certain political
contributions from corporations and labor organizations."
- MOVED CSHB 181(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
*HOUSE BILL NO. 79
"An Act relating to the offense of possession of tobacco by a
person under 19 years of age."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 200
"An Act relating to subpoenas of the Administrative Regulation
Review Committee; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 181
SHORT TITLE: SEPARATE SEGREGATED FUNDS:POLIT. CONTRIB
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) VEZEY
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
03/07/97 583 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/07/97 584 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY
03/25/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
03/25/97 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/03/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
BILL: HB 79
SHORT TITLE: MINOR IN POSSESSION OF TOBACCO
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BUNDE, James
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/16/97 90 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/16/97 90 (H) STA, JUDICIARY, FINANCE
04/03/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 104
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: (907) 465-4843
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 79.
PATRICIA SWENSON, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Con Bunde
State Capitol, Room 104
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: (907) 465-4843
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 79.
LOREN JONES, Director
Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110607
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0607
Telephone: (907) 465-2071
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 79.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-36, SIDE A
Number 0001
The House State Affairs Standing Committee was called to order by
Chair Jeannette James at 8:06 a.m. Members present at the call to
order were Representatives James, Dyson, Hodgins, Ivan and Vezey.
Members absent were Berkowitz and Elton. Representative Ethan
Berkowitz arrived at 8:12 a.m.
HB 181 - SEPARATE SEGREGATED FUNDS:POLIT. CONTRIB
The first order of business to come before the House State Affairs
Standing Committee was HB 181, "An Act relating to separate
segregated funds for certain political contributions from
corporations and labor organizations."
CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES called on Representative Al Vezey, sponsor of
HB 181, to present the bill.
Number 0063
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY apologized for the confusion last week
because the bill that was presented did not do what he thought it
would do. The intent was to provide assurance that if there was
going to be a payroll deduction or a mandatory dues plan that it
was voluntary. In addition, the entity that conducted the
deduction would have to keep the funds in a separate account. And,
if the entity became politically active, it would trigger the
definition of a group and would fall under the type of reporting
and restrictions passed into law last year on corporations and
labor unions and how the money could be used.
Number 0180
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY moved that the committee substitute (0-
LS0628/B, Cramer, 4/2/97) be adopted. There was no objection, the
committee substitute was so adopted.
Number 0231
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS moved that HB 181, as amended, move
from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached
fiscal note(s). There was no objection, CSHB 181(STA) was so moved
from the House State Affairs Standing Committee.
HB 79 - MINOR IN POSSESSION OF TOBACCO
The next order of business to come before the House State Affairs
Standing Committee was HB 79, "An Act relating to the offense of
possession of tobacco by a person under 19 years of age."
CHAIR JAMES called on Representative Con Bunde, sponsor of HB 79,
to present the bill.
Number 0421
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE, Alaska State Legislature, explained HB 79
was looked at last year. It was one of four parts necessary to
address nicotine addiction. Parents did their part, schools
continued to educate people and HB 79 addressed the issue of
enforcement. In the Anchorage area 60 percent of the kids under 19
were able to purchase cigarettes. Representative Bunde explained
he was motivated to address the bill because of a mother's story
regarding the purchase of chewing tobacco by her 16 year old son at
a quick stop. The mother called the police to report the vendor to
penalize him for selling to a minor. The police officer replied
there was nothing that could be done about it because an officer
had not witnessed the crime. The mother in response offered her 15
year old son to make a similar purchase of which she would
videotape the transaction for evidence. The police officer
responded that the kid would be liable to a charge of possession by
a minor and she would be liable to a charge of contributing to the
delinquency of a minor. There was no ability within Alaska's laws
to allow for a compliance check or a controlled buy using under-
aged purchasers of tobacco products. The police said that they
would not attempt to do any controlled buys because they would be
subjected to contributing to a delinquency charge themselves.
There were some additions made to the bill. He called on Patricia
Swenson, his legislative assistant, to address the additions.
Number 0625
PATRICIA SWENSON, Legislative Assistant to Representative Con
Bunde, announced there was a committee substitute (0-LS0348/F,
Chenoweth, 3/7/97) and explained the sections of the bill.
MS. SWENSON explained Section 1 restricted vending machines to
rooms controlled by persons over the age of 19 and restricted
persons under the age of 19 from the rooms. She referred the
committee members to page 1, line 11, (A) "as far as practicable
from the primary entrance; and", and suggested including the
following specific language:
"at least 10 feet from the entrance and at least 10 feet from the
exit".
MS. SWENSON explained the suggested language would restrict access
to a vending machine even further and would allow for better
control. A study commissioned by the vending machine industry in
1992 indicated that 23 percent of the youth that smoked used
vending machines "often" or "occasionally". A more recent study
found that 37.8 percent used vending machines "often" and younger
children relied on them "almost totally" for their cigarettes. In
addition, 13 year olds had reported using vending machines 11 times
more frequently than 17 year olds.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 2 made the use of false identification
for the purchase of cigarettes a violation punishable by a fine.
The violation equalled that of possession of tobacco.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 3 exempted minors from the violation of
the possession of tobacco when they were working with the police or
others in authority on compliance checks. It also made possession
of a product containing tobacco a violation punishable by a fine of
not less than $300 in (b). Jack Chenoweth, drafter of HB 79,
explained there was a decision pending in the Supreme Court that
said anything over $300 had to have a jury trial. If the court
agreed with the decision then she suggested lowering the fine to
below $300 so that the cost of a jury trial would not be associated
with the bill.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 4 added the following definitions:
person, proof of age, tobacco product, and vending machine.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 5 raised the endorsement license fee
from $25 to $100 for more incentive for those that sold tobacco to
obey the law.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 6 graduated the time a license was
suspended for violations. A time of 45 days and 90 days was
currently in statute. If a person had a violation within the past
24 months and the person had been convicted two or more times, the
license would be suspended or revoked for a period of one year.
This was done to add another range of violations for more
enforcement and more incentive for people not to sell tobacco. It
would penalize the owner and it was more preferable than citing the
sales clerk. The cases dismissed by judges felt that the owners
should be penalized and not the clerks because the fine was an
undue burden on the clerks making minimum wage.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 7 required a person with a business
license to keep tobacco products in a secure place. It also
defined what was a secure place - behind a counter where there was
intervention between the retailer and the purchaser. It would give
the retailer a chance to talk to the person to decide if he or she
was old enough to actually buy a tobacco product. At the same
time, it would give the retailer a chance to ask for proof of age
if there were any questions. She explained part of the reason for
putting the tobacco products in a secure place was because tobacco
companies often offered retailers slotting fees - a fee paid for
favorable placement of their product. This also included placement
of shelf displays cutting down on theft and smoking. The section
also required a warning sign to be posted conspicuously. The
tobacco companies supported this provision because research had
shown that warning sings did not reduce illegal sales to minors.
They often furthered rebellion in the youth. She stated, "If this
is something that they can't have, it's what they're going to try
to get." The section also allowed for a signed statement
indicating that the customer was 19 years old or older if the proof
of age was questioned. There was a drawback, however, in Sec. 8.
MS. SWENSON explained the retailer in Sec. 8 had to notify the
clerks of the law, train them in asking for proof of age, and
obtaining a signed statement. It also added the prevention of the
prosecution of a retailer or a clerk if a statement of age was
signed or a valid drivers license or id was presented at the time
of the purchase. She did not know, however, if the committee would
decide to keep that provision. She was not sure if a retailer
should be able to get away with selling to a minor even if they had
shown identification.
MS. SWENSON explained Sec. 9 included the addition of a violation
for the use of false identification. The minor would be charged,
prosecuted, and sentenced in an adult court.
Number 1142
CHAIR JAMES stated 10 feet from an exit and entrance was a good
idea.
Number 1153
MS. SWENSON replied many states used 25 feet.
CHAIR JAMES replied we had small places. There were place that
were not 25 feet long.
CHAIR JAMES suggested reducing the fine on page 2, line 26, from
$300 to $299.
Number 1214
CHAIR JAMES explained the other issue was letting a store get away
with selling to someone who either gave false identification or
signed a statement. The only way to enforce that would be through
signing a record like retailers did for a sales tax exemption
permit, for example. It was burdensome for the retailers but they
would have to get a signature anyway if someone did not have
identification. She would like to keep the provision in the bill,
however.
Number 1282
MS. SWENSON replied a person only had to sign a statement when his
or her identification was questioned by the retailer.
Number 1297
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE commented that he had noticed signs posted by
retailers that said "No ID No Cigarettes". "We're moving in that
direction."
Number 1312
CHAIR JAMES replied she knew that retailers were cracking down; the
issue was being taken seriously.
Number 1346
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked Ms. Swenson if the business license
was separate than the business license endorsement mentioned in
Sec. 5 for handling tobacco?
Number 1354
MS. SWENSON replied, "No." The fee was paid all at once. She was
not sure, however.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied in essence we were raising the
business license fee to $100.
MS. SWENSON stated it needed to be clarified. She did not know.
Number 1371
CHAIR JAMES stated it was an endorsement to the business license.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS announced he would object if it was not
separate.
CHAIR JAMES replied it was a separate charge.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS further stated that the new federal
regulations were stating 27 years of age.
MS. SWENSON replied, "Exactly." We need to change the age to 27 in
the bill in several places for the purposes of showing
identification; but to 19 years of age for the purposes of going
into a break room where a vending machine happened to be.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked if Ms. Swenson would be bringing
forward the revisions?
MS. SWENSON replied she would bring forward the revisions if that
was what the committee decided to do.
Number 1407
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS announced he did not have a problem with
Section 1 (A) as long as (B) was in the bill. "You can't have a
vending machine unless it's being supervised," he declared.
In addition, he had been a food whole seller for many years so he
understood the statement made by the chair that there were places
that did not have 25 feet.
Number 1435
MS. SWENSON replied there was danger in provision (B) in that
people were often busy and, therefore, not able to directly
supervise. If a vending machine was too close to an exit or
entrance, people of under age could come in and quickly buy
cigarettes then leave. The bill also read "and" between (A) and
(B), therefore, both would have to be present at the same time.
Thus, a vending machine would have to be at least 10 feet from the
entrance and exit in a place that was directly supervised. It
would not be an either-or situation.
Number 1474
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated quite a few businesses understood the
potential loss of tobacco and were designing special areas for a
person to request cigarettes. Therefore, as the price of
cigarettes went up, the merchant would be taking more of a
concerned attitude towards cigarettes being shop lifted, for
example. Shrinkage in tobacco was a tremendous problem because
there was so little profit in it. "I think that we'll find that
the compliance that we're looking at for Sec. 7 will easily be
adhered to," he declared.
Number 1518
CHAIR JAMES stated the provision to check licenses for those under
27 years of age was a huge burden on the retailer. "I don't agree
with that." However, if the state did not make its law as strong
as the federal law, it would take away money from our highways, for
example. She would prefer to leave the age at 19 or 21.
Number 1572
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked why the language "correctional
facility" was in the bill on page 2, line 15?
Number 1593
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE replied it was existing law. People in
correctional facilities used cigarettes as a pacifier for behavior
modification. There were some correctional facilities that were
going non-smoking; for example, the state of Texas. It seemed
paradoxical, however.
Number 1620
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON suggested deleting the language.
Number 1628
CHAIR JAMES replied the responsibility of corrections was to keep
prisoners calm. Therefore, she did not want to take a tool away
that could be used to maintain calm in the prisons. She would
prefer to yield to corrections on the issue before deleting the
language. She hated smoking more than anybody because she had
lived with a whole family whose members were addicted to nicotine,
therefore, she knew what smoking did to a person's nerves.
Number 1700
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that the impact would be minimal
because there were few 19 year olds in the prison system.
Number 1719
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated that the "no frills" prison bill
included a tobacco prohibition as well.
Number 1731
CHAIR JAMES stated that the House Judiciary Standing Committee had
discussed the issue, but she did not remember the results.
Number 1735
REPRESENTATIVE ETHAN BERKOWITZ stated it was banned because most of
the prisons in Alaska were moving to a smoke-free environment
anyway.
Number 1744
CHAIR JAMES replied she would like to have testimony from
corrections first before making any decision on the issue.
Number 1757
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked Representative Bunde to consider
setting the bill up so that tobacco products could be sold only in
designated areas like liquor stores. There were several food
chains going in that direction. It would solve a lot of problems.
"Most retailers when they look at the profit that they make on
tobacco would just as soon not be in the tobacco business and
that's why you have the funding for the slotting that the tobacco
wholesalers do." The public would be better served by such a move.
Number 1797
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE replied when he first heard about the low-
level profit of tobacco he was surprised. But after research, he
was amazed at the low profit margin. "There's no other product, I
think, that has such a low level of profit margin." He knew of a
case where the merchants sold cigarettes for what they paid for
them. The only profit margin was in the cash discount of paying
their bills early. The only reason that they sold cigarettes was
because they were a traffic generator for addicts. "While they're
in feeding their addition they might buy a quart a milk," he
declared.
CHAIR JAMES stated that cigarettes were a draw. People stop and
buy a package of cigarettes along with other things.
Number 1888
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked Ms. Swenson whether the language in
Sec. 3 (2) came from other states?
Number 1902
MS. SWENSON replied she did not remember if the language came from
other states or not. There was similar language in another bill
started last session. There were people from the department who
wanted to address the Synar Amendment issue. We were not sure if
the provision needed to be included or not. We were doing
compliance checks of the regulations.
Number 1947
LOREN JONES, Director, Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse,
Department of Health and Social Services, was the first person to
testify in Juneau. In response to Representative Berkowitz's
comments on undercover operations, the department supported that
section of the legislation because it gave a tool to police
departments. Some police departments felt that they did not have
the right to use minors. The section did not mandate police
departments, but put the option into statute. The Department of
Public Safety, however, felt it was a drain on resources and it was
not appropriate to use minors in that way. That was one of the
reasons the bill last year did not pass the Senate. The Department
of Health and Social Services had used minors in compliance checks
for evidence. It was not for a criminal case; it was strictly to
check that the state was in compliance with the Synar Amendment.
The attorney's general office said that if a minor was trained by
the department; followed the protocol; and was supervised by an
adult, they were constructively not guilty of possessing tobacco.
If the purchase was successful, the minor immediately turned it
over to the supervising adult upon leaving the store. There was no
penalty imposed because the department did not have any enforcement
powers. Therefore, it was the only tool that the federal
government would accept as proof that the state was doing
compliance checks. If it took something in statute to have the
tool available for law enforcement and to protect their interest,
then the department would support the provision in the bill.
Number 2088
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked Mr. Jones to explain what he thought
Section 1 meant.
Number 2098
MR. JONES replied under existing law vending machines could only be
in a place where a person had a license to sell alcohol or in an
employee break room. The change would allow a vending machine to
be in an employee break room if it was not accessible to employees
under the age of 19.
Number 2132
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked Mr. Jones how he would propose to say
that they had been denied access?
Number 2137
MR. JONES replied he was not sure how that would be done unless
there were two separate break rooms; whereby, one would be keyed
and only those over 19 years of age would have a key. That was not
the only way, however.
Number 2158
CHAIR JAMES stated if there were employees under the age of 19 then
a vending machine would not be able to be in the break room. That
would be the effect of the provision in the bill.
Number 2172
MR. JONES replied the new federal requirements stated:
"no vending machines or self-service displays except in places that
never have anyone under 18 present".
Number 2192
CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Jones if the federal requirement he was
referring to was a regulation change?
MR. JONES replied they were regulations adopted by the Food and
Drug Administration.
CHAIR JAMES wondered, therefore, if the state had to comply with
the laws?
MR. JONES replied he was not qualified to answer the question. We
would hope that vendors who sold tobacco would be in compliance.
CHAIR JAMES announced the bill would be held over until April 8,
1997.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 2219
CHAIR JAMES adjourned the House State Affairs Standing Committee
meeting at 8:48 a.m.
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